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   1 11:04 < pleia2> ok, well we can get started a little
   2 11:04 < pleia2> first is the time-sensitive stuff
   3 11:05 < pleia2> then we'll talk a bit about project status and all that, so the agenda for this meeting: 
   4 11:05 < pleia2> 1. Mackenzie Morgan and I are doing Ubuntu Open Week[0] sessions on the Ubuntu Women project, one discussion the issues and on discussing the solutions as we see them.
   5 11:05 < pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
   6 11:06 < pleia2> 2. Ubuntu Developers Summit[1] where we will be having session devoted to Ubuntu Women, and Laura is organizing a social dinner
   7 11:06 < pleia2> 3. Project status, initiatives, etc
   8 11:06 -!- issyl0 [n=isabell@freenode/community-coordinator/wikimedia.issyl0] has joined #ubuntu-women
   9 11:06 < czajkowski> issyl0: welcome
  10 11:06 < issyl0> Thanks czajkowski :)
  11 11:07 < pleia2> so we can probably start with my session, I sent an email to the list a couple days ago: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/2009-October/002175.html
  12 11:08 < pleia2> any thoughts?
  13 11:08 < czajkowski> pleia2: nice to see your notes to get an idea of what's coming ahead in the session, thanks
  14 11:09 < Venil> Actually, I noted one thing when I was convincing my female friends to switch to Ubuntu
  15 11:09 < Venil> Women don't make the decisions in a one computer household
  16 11:09 < Venil> in India
  17 11:09 < pleia2> my notes from jaunty are here, if you scroll down the points 1-4 I think that will be the meat of maco's "Encouragement" portion: http://princessleia.com/uw/uw-uow.txt
  18 11:09 < czajkowski> so I've a question re one of your points pleia2 When do we think or how do we know when " We would like to be able to dissolve the project in the future when more women are comfortable getting involved themselves.
  19 11:10 < pleia2> czajkowski: I don't know, it would be fun to say "when involvement and use of Ubuntu is 50/50!" but I think the project will be *long* out-dated by that point
  20 11:10 < czajkowski> nods
  21 11:10 < pleia2> mostly I am just throwing that out there so people know we do intend to retire the project at some point
  22 11:10 < czajkowski> ok makes sense
  23 11:11 < pleia2> and that we have a goal :)
  24 11:11 < czajkowski> I guess for me I'd like to look at the goals for the group
  25 11:11 < Venil> nods
  26 11:11  * gchick nods
  27 11:11 < czajkowski> I don't normally joins "women" titled groups, but I have met great people in here
  28 11:11 < pleia2> so we do have a RoadMap: http://wiki.ubuntu-women.org/RoadMap
  29 11:11 < czajkowski> and was useful to me when I went to UDS last year  to know another person going
  30 11:12 < akgraner> pleia2, so in regards to your session and issues...
  31 11:12 < Venil> The roadmap is cool
  32 11:13 < pleia2> Venil: thanks for your comments re: women in India, if you can stick around maybe we can talk about it some later in the meeting?
  33 11:13 < Venil> Makes the goals clear
  34 11:13 < Venil> Yes
  35 11:13 < akgraner> how do we acknowledge socio/political aspects of issues without becoming a socio/political group...
  36 11:14 < akgraner> I think it's important to acknowledge the greater issue without becoming know for only that.. does that make sense?
  37 11:14 < pleia2> well, since we believe women should be equal and this is not a universally held ideal, I think we kind of are a socio/political group
  38 11:14 < Venil> I think the reason for forming this group itself is socio/political
  39 11:14 < Venil> I mean social and political expectations/roles
  40 11:15 < pleia2> but at the core, that's the only belief we really share (I think)
  41 11:15 < Venil> True
  42 11:15 < akgraner> yes, but how do we have fun, and concentrate on Ubuntu if we are fighting on every front...
  43 11:16 -!- christel [i=christel@freenode/staff/exherbo.christel] has joined #ubuntu-women
  44 11:16 < Venil> The same way we have fun and concentrate on our work everyday, as women
  45 11:16 < Venil> I guess most of us know how
  46 11:16 < pleia2> well, as far as I'm concerned project-wise, the playing offence is only one of four major things this project does
  47 11:16 < pleia2> offense
  48 11:17 < pleia2> sure there are things that come up that bother us, and they are very touchy subjects
  49 11:17 < pleia2> but day to day the core of this project is providing this safe channel to talk to other women, working on our interviews series, encouraging each other
  50 11:17 < Venil> rapid nods
  51 11:17 < akgraner> cool
  52 11:18 < pleia2> unfortunately that stuff is "boring" and doesn't make for good headlines :)
  53 11:18 < akgraner> :-)
  54 11:18 < pleia2> I am not sure how to make it so, aside from trying to talk/blog about the encouraging stuff we do more
  55 11:20 < czajkowski> hmmm
  56 11:20 < pleia2> so I guess my issues session is kinda "here is a link to incidents"
  57 11:20 < czajkowski> well I hate to be awkard here
  58 11:20 < czajkowski> but I for one dont want to be a social/politcal group
  59 11:20 < czajkowski> maybe that's just e
  60 11:20 < czajkowski> *me
  61 11:21 < pleia2> then "we do encouragement too, why? because girls aren't encouraged in tech when they are young so tend to be insecure, it's hard entering an environment as a minority, it's nice to see other women around.."
  62 11:21 < pleia2> czajkowski: I didn't mean we intended to be, I mean by the very nature of the team we kinda of *are*
  63 11:21 < czajkowski> hmm
  64 11:21 < pleia2> we want to promote getting more women involved, that's a social goal
  65 11:22 < gchick> I suspect that people also have different ideas of what constitutes "political" -- for me, frex, daily work and encouragement *are* political, but for someone for whom political doesn't sound like a good thing, I suspect it reads as something else.
  66 11:22 < pleia2> gchick: yeah, I think you're right
  67 11:22 < czajkowski> yes
  68 11:22 < czajkowski> this is very true
  69 11:22  * akgraner nods
  70 11:22 < czajkowski> to me it comes across as harsh
  71 11:22 < Venil> gchick: You've hit the nail on the head
  72 11:23 < czajkowski> and not something I would ever want to be associated with
  73 11:23 < pleia2> czajkowski: what do you see this project as?
  74 11:23 < czajkowski> as a gateway to meet fellow female memembers in IT
  75 11:23 < Venil> Yes,
  76 11:24 < Venil> But not necessarily in IT
  77 11:24 < czajkowski> technology
  78 11:24 < czajkowski> ubuntu
  79 11:24 < pleia2> czajkowski: and our encouragement initiatives? good/bad?
  80 11:24 < czajkowski> I mena I can just as easily join other ubuntu channels and meet fellow ubuntu folks in ther, but I joined here to meet more females.
  81 11:24 < Venil> I don't know anything about software tech, for example
  82 11:25 < akgraner> I see this a group to use as way to encourage other people (especially women) to become involved in Ubuntu
  83 11:25 < czajkowski> akgraner: yes
  84 11:25 < Venil> Basically, I wanted to give something back to Ubuntu
  85 11:25 < czajkowski> pleia2: what do you mean sorry?
  86 11:25 < Venil> As if I used proprietary software, I would be paying them
  87 11:26 < pleia2> czajkowski: I guess in my view our socio/political viewpoint is "we believe women are equal to men and we seek to encourage more women to use/contribute to ubuntu"
  88 11:26 < pleia2> that's not a viewpoint shared by everyone
  89 11:27 < akgraner> pleia2, I don't disagree with that statement...
  90 11:27 < czajkowski> neither do I.
  91 11:27 < czajkowski> I dont think anyone does
  92 11:27 < pleia2> ok
  93 11:27 < pleia2> well that's the only reason I said that we're kinda a socio/political group
  94 11:28 < pleia2> all our actions stem from that belief and goal
  95 11:28 < Venil> Of course
  96 11:28 < czajkowski> nods,
  97 11:29 < czajkowski> so I think we do try to do that with getting more females in ubuntu in more places, pleia2 is a great example of that
  98 11:29 < czajkowski> the ubuntu women series is great
  99 11:29 < pleia2> yeah, I really think we need to focus on these things
 100 11:30 < pleia2> I guess my Issues thing is just outlining why women need a group to achieve these goals
 101 11:30 < czajkowski> I think we should be focusing on the good side of things
 102 11:30 < pleia2> of course, that's why maco's whole presentation discusses the good side
 103 11:30 < czajkowski> I mention to folks about UW and it doesnt seem to have a positive feel for some people
 104 11:30 < pleia2> mine just explains why the situation exists
 105 11:30 < czajkowski> *nods*
 106 11:31 < pleia2> there are people out there who still say "women can get involved, they just don't want to!
 107 11:31 < pleia2> so I guess that's the crowd I'm speaking to
 108 11:31 < Venil> I know
 109 11:31 < pleia2> we *want* to, but barriers $1, $2 and $3 exist and only a small % get over those
 110 11:31 < pleia2> by themselves
 111 11:32 < akgraner> gotcha...  but I thing another issue as women is acknowledging it is ok to differ on what we think the issues are.. without attacking each other for feeling that way...
 112 11:32 -!- lizzard [n=liz@76.14.54.237] has joined #ubuntu-women
 113 11:32 < pleia2> akgraner: *nod*
 114 11:33 < pleia2> maco is having a hard time getting online at the coffee shop :\
 115 11:33 < Venil> oh bad
 116 11:33 < Solarion> I bet their ap is busted
 117 11:33 < czajkowski> akgraner: that's a big one for me
 118 11:34 < pleia2> I tried to communicate that last month in the shuttleworth thread on the list
 119 11:34 < Solarion> e.g. fakey half-proxying dns
 120 11:34 < akgraner> pleia2, your response was awesome!
 121 11:34  * Solarion ran into that a few times
 122 11:34 < pleia2> akgraner: thanks :)
 123 11:34 < pleia2> for those who didn't see: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/2009-October/002134.html
 124 11:34 < czajkowski> We need to be a lot more tolerant of one anothers different opinions, as we have a large community in Ubuntu we also have diverse cultures.
 125 11:35 < czajkowski> pleia2: yes you handled that very well
 126 11:35 < czajkowski> and definately expressed how I felt , so thanks
 127 11:35 < Venil> It was very clear and to the point, but yet not offensive
 128 11:36 < pleia2> czajkowski: good, sounds like we're all on the same page here then
 129 11:36 < gchick> also, it added "our Path of Being Awesome" to my vocab ;)
 130 11:36 < pleia2> hehe
 131 11:36 < Venil> hmmm... Aren't we already awesome?
 132 11:37 < pleia2> Venil: of course!
 133 11:37 < akgraner> and I think we need to make sure we acknowledge the contribution of other groups (female) without downplaying the worth they bring to the table, even if it isn't the way I or someone else would handle the same situation...
 134 11:37 < czajkowski> It's always good to hear another side of a story, but if I disagree with the viewpoint I don't berate the person who has explained it or tell their opion is crap tbh. I think that's something this *channel* needs to work on
 135 11:37 < pleia2> czajkowski: I agree
 136 11:37 -!- woowoo [n=woowoo@mneptok.com] has joined #ubuntu-women
 137 11:38 < akgraner> +1
 138 11:38  * Venil claps
 139 11:38 < pleia2> I like that we can discuss things here, but I think sometimes it gets heated and personal, and that's not good
 140 11:38 < czajkowski> so I really would like to see how we could look at that in the channel, any thoughts?
 141 11:38 < czajkowski> pleia2: aye making this personal is not the way to go forward
 142 11:38 < czajkowski> it's of no help for anyone
 143 11:38  * akgraner nods
 144 11:39 < pleia2> even when it's not personal, people can sometimes feel attacked
 145 11:39 < czajkowski> yes
 146 11:39 < pleia2> so a /msg from time to time saying "I disagree, but you are still great!" is nice
 147 11:39 < Venil> Good Idea
 148 11:39 < akgraner> those are really some of the best discussions I have had with people...
 149 11:40 < czajkowski> or a pm saying I'm not attacking you, I apprecaite we have different opions on it, healthy discussions are good for everyone.
 150 11:40 -!- MsMaco [n=maco@ubuntu/member/macogw] has joined #ubuntu-women
 151 11:40 < Venil> Maybe point out a time when we were in agreement
 152 11:40 < pleia2> czajkowski: yeah
 153 11:40 < MsMaco> ok, FINALLY online. the cafe i'm in just told me to use their neighbor's wifi
 154 11:40 < czajkowski> we learn more and take away something from the discussion.
 155 11:40  * Venil applauds
 156 11:40 < pleia2> welcome MsMaco :)
 157 11:40 < akgraner> I don't like to  put my disagreements or neg stuff "on the street"
 158 11:41 < akgraner> MsMaco, yay!! welcome!!!
 159 11:41 < pleia2> I am not sure how to implement this though
 160 11:41 < czajkowski> akgraner: but sometimes, you need to
 161 11:41 < akgraner> czajkowski, yeah I know
 162 11:41 < czajkowski> but in a well put non offensive manner
 163 11:41 < akgraner> and I do when I *have* to
 164 11:41 < czajkowski> pleia2: so I think some sort of mail to the list
 165 11:42 < czajkowski> or annoucemnt on the irc channel
 166 11:42  * pleia2 nods
 167 11:42 < czajkowski> explaining this
 168 11:42 < czajkowski> it's an issue for this channel, as I've not seen it elsewhere
 169 11:42 -!- JSG [n=GC@unaffiliated/geekchick/x-389545837] has joined #ubuntu-women
 170 11:42 < czajkowski> we need to be a lot more tolerant in here
 171 11:42 < pleia2> it happens in diversity channels of all types
 172 11:42 < akgraner> maybe we can blog about it...(which I have been lax about doing)....
 173 11:42 < pleia2> but yeah, it's not an issue in other ubuntu channels
 174 11:43 < JSG> Psh. Diversity. If you're not a chick, leave.
 175 11:43  * JSG hides
 176 11:43 < JSG> lol
 177 11:43 < czajkowski> pleia2: aye where in other channels you can have a lot more discussions/debates going, but there seems to be a lot more acceptance of difference of opionion
 178 11:43 < pleia2> JSG: there are a lot of really great men in this project
 179 11:43 < Solarion> JSG: note how you're the only one laughing
 180 11:43 < JSG> pleia2, please. I was being the devils advocate.
 181 11:43 < JSG> It's what I am good at.
 182 11:43 < pleia2> ok
 183 11:44  * JSG goes back to snort
 184 11:44 < Solarion> good plan
 185 11:44 < czajkowski> I mean I'm no angel I accept that, but I have seem pm's from ppl giving out to others for me not agreeing with them in here and asking why I didnt shut up. that's not healthy
 186 11:44 < pleia2> czajkowski: yeah, for some reason foss feminism stuff is *really* a huge issue, it gets heated and violent all over the place
 187 11:44 < pleia2> blogs, irc, even in real life :\
 188 11:45 < MsMaco> i invited wgrant  in here a few days ago and he was afraid he'd be kicked
 189 11:45 < Solarion> The problem is everyone has a plausible chain toward feeling the victim
 190 11:45 < czajkowski> I invited issyl0 in here tonight to show her what goes on.
 191 11:45 < Solarion> (at least, that's one aspect of the problem, as I see it. :)
 192 11:45 < czajkowski> she's new and young, and nice to get a new opinion
 193 11:46 < Venil> Always good to get a fresh look
 194 11:46 < czajkowski> see I think the haveing the -women name in it. confuses people and also puts people off joining
 195 11:47 < Solarion> That is probably very true
 196 11:47 < pleia2> ok, so maybe such a doc sent to everyone has to cover: 1. in general being more open and tolerant, less coming off as attacking 2. pausing from time to time to make sure people don't feel upset/attacked, reassure that we're friends
 197 11:47 < Venil> That's true, but that's the best way to indicate that this is a community for women
 198 11:47 < Venil> Sorry, I was talking about the community name
 199 11:47 < MsMaco> i think it would be a bit disappointing if, like the DW channel, we ended up with the channel being 3/4 male, though
 200 11:48 < akgraner> also.. right now there is such a neg perception when you just say Ubuntu Women...:-/  I want people men and women to see the value in the channel...
 201 11:48 < Solarion> why would htat be disappointing?
 202 11:48 < czajkowski> MsMaco: the goal at some point is that this channel will disalove anyway.......
 203 11:48 < MsMaco> czajkowski: i know
 204 11:49 < MsMaco> but hopefully due to there being enough women that we dont need it anymore, not from being overrun with men :P
 205 11:49 < gchick> MsMaco +1
 206 11:49  * Solarion feels somewhat alienated now
 207 11:49  * pleia2 hugs Solarion 
 208 11:50  * Venil repeats hug
 209 11:50 < czajkowski> MsMaco: true, but can you see how the name in itself may not be inviting to others?
 210 11:50 < czajkowski> Solarion: awwww
 211 11:50 < Venil> Yes
 212 11:50 < czajkowski> I know of folks who WILL NOT JOIN women named groups
 213 11:50 < MsMaco> czajkowski: yes, i've had a handful of guys go "huh? we're allowed in there?" and im like "well james and mdz haven't been kicked yet..."
 214 11:50 < czajkowski> so you could be losing out on them being active in here?
 215 11:50 < Solarion> The point is rather to get people to fix the problem, which requires discussion, which requires particpants
 216 11:50 < MsMaco> aye, seele won't join women's groups
 217 11:51 < Solarion> another way to view a high-percentage-men feminishm-themed group is that they're willing to engage and learn and improve the situation
 218 11:51 < czajkowski> aye there is I'm sure more than 1 women who has not joined here due to the name
 219 11:51 < Venil> Ok, I have to leave for 5 mins
 220 11:51 < Venil> Will be back
 221 11:51 < czajkowski> and also the perception of the group
 222 11:51 < pleia2> well, I don't think changing the group name is an option
 223 11:51 < MsMaco> Solarion: thats true
 224 11:51 < pleia2> and I'm not sure what we'd call it if we did
 225 11:51 < akgraner> Venil, thanks for joining in!!!
 226 11:51 < czajkowski> Solarion: well put
 227 11:52 < pleia2> since our goal *is* to encourage women
 228 11:52 < IdleOne> #ubuntu-people
 229 11:52 < pleia2> IdleOne: that doesn't reflect our premise
 230 11:52 < czajkowski> nice
 231 11:52 < Solarion> IdleOne: problem is that it's no longer feminism-themed. :)
 232 11:52 < Solarion> good ideal
 233 11:52 < Solarion> there's nothing wrong with the group name; it's for discussing women in ubuntu
 234 11:52 < czajkowski> what would folks think about renaming the group/.channel?  Do you think we'd get more activity ????
 235 11:52 < MsMaco> er...aren't we getting a little OT? bit late to change the name :P
 236 11:53 < Solarion> just like #ubuntu-motu is for muts and -kernel is for the kernel. :)
 237 11:53 < IdleOne> the groups is about women being treated equally correct? but some women and men don't want to join a -women group for whatever reasons they may have
 238 11:53 < Solarion> MsMaco: is the problem with men in the group to have a safe place to get away?
 239 11:53 < czajkowski> Solarion: well it's someothing we could change as we;re excluding people who do not want to join  a specific women only named group?
 240 11:54 < pleia2> czajkowski: what should we call it then?
 241 11:54 < Solarion> if so, then you might want to make a -womeonly group with invites only
 242 11:54 < czajkowski> IdleOne: +1
 243 11:54 < Solarion> (I can totally see the utility of such a group, sadly)
 244 11:54 < pleia2> (also I agree with MsMaco that we're getting way off topic here, I hightly doubt we'll change the name)
 245 11:54 < czajkowski> pleia2: :(
 246 11:54 < czajkowski> ok
 247 11:54 < Solarion> czajkowski: I dunno; if they can't join a group with "women" in the name, I think they have some learning to do
 248 11:54 < gchick> all, I'm going to have to head out -- wish I could stay longer
 249 11:55 -!- gchick [n=amy@12.179.202.181] has quit ["Leaving"]
 250 11:55 < akgraner> crap was going to let them know logs would be available and thank them for joining...
 251 11:55 < akgraner> wish I could type faster
 252 11:55 < akgraner> :-/
 253 11:56 < pleia2> gchick comes here frequently :)
 254 11:56 < IdleOne> well speaking from a mans point of view I had some reservations about coming to this channel at first. I thought that maybe it was women only and did not want to seem like I was "hunting" for women. then I saw that there were also other men in here and decided to check it out
 255 11:56 < akgraner> yes I know.. it's a habit thanking people..:-)
 256 11:56 < pleia2> IdleOne: did you bother to read the website?
 257 11:56 < pleia2> we explain in *many* places what our goals are, and that we welcome everyone, men and women
 258 11:57 < pleia2> if someone chooses not to read that, I am not sure what we can do
 259 11:57 < IdleOne> pleia2: after I read the website and saw you mention the channel a few times I decided to check it out. I felt "safer" knowing that you were here
 260 11:57 < Venil> akgraner: Thanks
 261 11:57 < akgraner> pleia2, we need to find away to get the website out there, other than just in the topic...
 262 11:57 < pleia2> akgraner: out where? it's on the forums, on the mailing list, on every blog post I do about the project....
 263 11:58 < akgraner> I say we, meaning *me* I guess..
 264 11:58 < akgraner> pleia2, you do a great job of getting it out there...
 265 11:58 < pleia2> the first line on our website: Ubuntu-Women is a team functioning under Ubuntu to provide a platform and encouragement for women to contribute to Ubuntu-Linux, a Debian based free and open-source GNU/Linux software. Our main role will be along the lines of supplementing and being the stepping stone toward the larger Ubuntu-Linux world. Membership is open to all.
 266 11:58 < akgraner> but I still know people who just found out about it within the last 2 weeks
 267 11:58 < pleia2> maybe we should make it bigger? bolder?
 268 11:58 < akgraner> and they have been in the community a long time
 269 11:59 < pleia2> ("all" is already in bold)
 270 11:59 < Venil> This community is not really easy to find
 271 11:59 < Venil> I mean, I found it after a specific search for ubuntu + women
 272 11:59 < MsMaco> Venil: people seem to find it in the channel list just fine when they wanna pick up chicks
 273 11:59 < Venil> It didn't come up anytime I was searching for help
 274 11:59 < Venil> Maybe you have to want to pick up chicks?
 275 12:00 < akgraner> I mean just getting them to the website... I have sorta been lax on doing that...  me takes responsibility to do more on that front
 276 12:00 < Solarion> MsMaco: I thought thats what farm supply stores were for. :)
 277 12:00 < Venil> Hopefully not
 278 12:00  * Venil laughs
 279 12:00 < pleia2> akgraner: I guess I'm just trying to figure out what we're missing, if people make assumptions about "ubuntu women" from the name and don't bother looking at our /topic, forums, mailing list, website, wiki - where are we supposed to inform them?
 280 12:01 < pleia2> should we be called ubuntu-women-but-everyone-can-join-the-project-its-fun-and-we-encourage-women ? :P
 281 12:01 < MsMaco> LOL
 282 12:01 < IdleOne> lol
 283 12:01 < akgraner> pleia2, me too... I am right there with you... I am trying to figure it out as well
 284 12:01 < Venil> That's so short!
 285 12:01 < IdleOne> I would nee to add that to auto-join for sure
 286 12:01 < pleia2> hehe
 287 12:01 < Solarion> heh
 288 12:02 < Solarion> (farm supply stores, because they stock baby chickens... :)
 289 12:02 < MsMaco> by the way, i still like the #ubuntu-hotchicks full of eliza bots that record who joins it and automatically bans them from here
 290 12:02 < akgraner> pleia2, so I am looking at the discussion so far.. and making notes for me and what I can do...
 291 12:02 < MsMaco> er, i like that idea
 292 12:02 < Solarion> heh
 293 12:03 < pleia2> akgraner: great :)
 294 12:03 < IdleOne> MsMaco: that is entrapment :P
 295 12:03 < akgraner> so far I have tolerance as the number 1 goal
 296 12:03 < Venil> Why?
 297 12:03 < Solarion> akgraner: within tolerances? :)
 298 12:03 < akgraner> talking about the positive benefits and why this channel is needed...
 299 12:03 < Venil> Making the goals of the community clear is #2
 300 12:04 < akgraner> channel/group
 301 12:04 < czajkowski> tolerance and respect for others opions in here is a big one tbh.
 302 12:04 < akgraner> czajkowski, yes
 303 12:04 < pleia2> yeah, so I think we should brainstorm some on this
 304 12:04 < pleia2> 11:47:21 < pleia2> ok, so maybe such a doc sent to everyone has to cover: 1. in general being more open and tolerant, less coming off as attacking 2. pausing from time to time to make sure people don't feel upset/attacked, reassure that we're friends
 305 12:04 < pleia2> is there more than that at this point??
 306 12:04 < pleia2> -?
 307 12:05 < czajkowski> thats pretty good aye
 308 12:05 < Venil> I think the people who have been here for some time will know
 309 12:05 < akgraner> I think that is awesome!
 310 12:05 < Venil> the things that are really sensitive
 311 12:05 < Venil> Maybe you could mention them somewhere
 312 12:05 < pleia2> ok, I'll flesh this out a bit and share with a couple people - then we can push it out to the ops and the list
 313 12:06 < pleia2> probably include it in IrcGuidelines
 314 12:07 < akgraner> gotta luv the sound pf progress...  we have action items...
 315 12:07 < pleia2> hehe
 316 12:08 < czajkowski> so I guess  also what would folks like discussed at UDS
 317 12:08 < czajkowski> there are a few of us going
 318 12:08 < czajkowski> but having more views from the members would be great, and also encourge remote participation
 319 12:08 < akgraner> remote participation ROCKS!!!
 320 12:08 < IdleOne> I think what this group should be pushing towards and this is just one persons opinion of course. Working towards more of an equality stance and less of more rights for the minority stance. Unless I don't fully understand the purpose of ubuntu-women
 321 12:08 < czajkowski> akgraner: it sure does!!!!!
 322 12:08 < pleia2> are we actually going ot have a session, or just meetup for drinks?
 323 12:09 < pleia2> I actually don't quite know how things work at UDS
 324 12:09 < akgraner> pleia2, sessions
 325 12:09 < akgraner> they are working on the schedule now
 326 12:09 < czajkowski> aye session
 327 12:09 < pleia2> ok, great :)
 328 12:09 < czajkowski> at last uds we had a round table
 329 12:09 < czajkowski> and it was last min
 330 12:09 < czajkowski> so this time it would be ncie to go in with some goals and thoughts
 331 12:09 < pleia2> so as this discussion today shows, we need to improve our image - maybe talk about how this can be done?
 332 12:10 < akgraner> +1
 333 12:10 < czajkowski> +1
 334 12:11 < MsMaco> and at last uds i was like "Roundtable...how does this work???"
 335 12:11 < pleia2> maybe see if anyone else has ideas like our interview series on how to do more encouragement, if we feel it's needed
 336 12:11 < akgraner> I'll see if I can get the times before UDS for the UW session and get it to the list so people can plan to attend remotely
 337 12:11 < pleia2> akgraner: great!
 338 12:12 < czajkowski> akgraner: ah we will thats this week at some stage
 339 12:12 < czajkowski> we know about a week in advance
 340 12:12 < Venil> ok
 341 12:12 < Venil> My connection is giving problem
 342 12:12 < Venil> problems
 343 12:14 < pleia2> akgraner: can you start a thread on the mailing list about possible discussions for our session? and let people know it can be attended remotely
 344 12:14 < akgraner> should I send out the things I found that made remote participation easier...
 345 12:14 < pleia2> yes, that too!
 346 12:14 < czajkowski> akgraner: yes
 347 12:14 < akgraner> yep..can do
 348 12:14 < issyl0> Hmm, I've been following this discussion, thanks to czajkowski who told me about it, and it is very interesting.. makes me think I might get involved somehow, being female and a teenager. :)
 349 12:14 < czajkowski> that would be great
 350 12:14 < pleia2> issyl0: welcome :)
 351 12:14  * Venil claps for issyl0
 352 12:15 < akgraner> issyl0, welcome!! \o/
 353 12:15 < Venil> I'm new here too!
 354 12:15 < pleia2> ok, so I have one more thing for our agenda
 355 12:15 < MsMaco> hey, yay for teenagers!
 356 12:15 < issyl0> pleia2, akgraner, Venil, thanks :)
 357 12:15 < Venil> Seconded
 358 12:15 < pleia2> our wiki is a problem :(
 359 12:15 < czajkowski> :(
 360 12:15 < issyl0> And yeah, MsMaco!
 361 12:15 < pleia2> it's hosted on one of canonical's loco servers
 362 12:15 < Venil> ok....
 363 12:15 < akgraner> pleia2, there you go with the "w" word again....:-P
 364 12:16 < pleia2> they haven't updated it in ages, havne't put antispam stuff in, have been saying for MONTHS that they intended to upgrade it
 365 12:16 < Venil> Totally at sea here
 366 12:16 < pleia2> we've had to lock it down to only a couple editors
 367 12:16 < Venil> uh oh
 368 12:16 < pleia2> Venil: wiki.ubuntu-women.org
 369 12:16 < MsMaco> pleia2: so....typical canonical sysadmins
 370 12:16 < czajkowski> aye we had similar on -ie
 371 12:16 < Venil> No, is the w word wiki?
 372 12:16 < Venil> Ok then
 373 12:16 < pleia2> so I think we need to decide whether we keep waiting and limping along with this
 374 12:16 < czajkowski> we're considering moving it off the server
 375 12:16 < pleia2> or move back to wiki.ubuntu.com
 376 12:17 < akgraner> yeah wiki's and I (oil and water)...
 377 12:17 < pleia2> wiki.ubuntu.com gives us the advantage of being searchable by the rest of the ubuntu project :)
 378 12:17 < czajkowski> which may help our group
 379 12:17 < pleia2> right
 380 12:17 < pleia2> but the migration will be painful, old links will break
 381 12:17 -!- Venil_ [i=3b5c332f@gateway/web/freenode/x-uowfalxqfatkqmow] has joined #ubuntu-women
 382 12:18 < Venil_> My connection is killing me
 383 12:18 < akgraner> pleia2, what do we need to do?
 384 12:18 < pleia2> I am leaning toward moving it, in spite of the pain :)
 385 12:18 < czajkowski> pleia2: can we help?
 386 12:18 < Venil_> Yes?
 387 12:18 < akgraner> even though I joke about wiki's I can help do what ever
 388 12:19 < pleia2> yep, there will be a lot of manual stuff
 389 12:19 < Venil_> Manual laborer ready here
 390 12:19 -!- Venil [i=3b5c332f@gateway/web/freenode/x-ihvtuyvjreieqrtx] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
 391 12:19 < pleia2> going through the whole existing wiki, copying it into wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWomen
 392 12:19 < pleia2> and the wiki syntax changed! so updating that
 393 12:20 < pleia2> I think it's just links that changed
 394 12:20 < czajkowski> perhaps this could be a mini project
 395 12:20 < czajkowski> break it into sections
 396 12:20 < pleia2> yeah, that's a good idea
 397 12:20 < czajkowski> so we're not all working on it at one time
 398 12:20  * pleia2 nods
 399 12:20 < czajkowski> and also doesnt get let not getting done or done by 2 people
 400 12:20 -!- akk [n=akkana@24-205-54-63.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-women
 401 12:20 < czajkowski> so if a mail gets sent
 402 12:20 < akgraner> maybe some one can set up the pages..and make sure the names are correct
 403 12:20 < czajkowski> listing the areas
 404 12:21 < pleia2> I think it was about 3 years ago that we moved from wiki.u.c to wiki.u-w.org, I did the process myself
 405 12:21 < czajkowski> and assinging folks by surname to an area  we could get it done faster
 406 12:21 < pleia2> it was a chore then :) and the wiki has grown a lot
 407 12:21 < akgraner> pleia2, ouch...
 408 12:21 < Venil_> the community has also grown, so you have more hands
 409 12:21 < Venil_> to help
 410 12:22 < pleia2> yep :)
 411 12:22 < pleia2> so first - do we agree that moving to wiki.u.c is a good idea?
 412 12:22 < czajkowski> +1
 413 12:22 < akgraner> +1
 414 12:22 < pleia2> we can ask the canonical sysadmins to forward wiki.ubuntu-women.org subdomain to the new wiki
 415 12:22 < pleia2> so it won't be *too* horrible
 416 12:23 < MsMaco> how many months will it take them to setup a redirect?
 417 12:23 < akgraner> pleia2, one question.. why was it moved to begin with?
 418 12:23 < pleia2> MsMaco: i'll just nag jpds until he does it :)
 419 12:23 < pleia2> this is easy, the wiki upgrade is hard
 420 12:23 < MsMaco> pleia2: do you have a rt # for the wiki upgrade?
 421 12:23 < pleia2> MsMaco: nope :\
 422 12:24 < MsMaco> was one ever filed?
 423 12:24 < issyl0> pleia2, oh I know jpds, I met him a couple of months ago.
 424 12:24 < pleia2> Susana and I filed some about the spam, which was replied with "we're upgrading soon"
 425 12:24 < pleia2> issyl0: he's great :)
 426 12:24 < issyl0> Yeah :)
 427 12:25 -!- HappY_Yogurt [n=Robert@foo.stahl.nu] has joined #Ubuntu-Women
 428 12:25 < pleia2> anyone else have any thoughts about moving the wiki? any -1s?
 429 12:26 < akgraner> pleia2, why was it moved from w.u.c 3 years ogo..
 430 12:26 < akgraner> was it due to consolidating everything back then.. or did I misunderstand?
 431 12:26 < pleia2> akgraner: because we could, we had a shiny new domain name and wanted to use it
 432 12:27 < akgraner> pleia2, hehe ok... just wondering...:-)
 433 12:27 < akgraner> pleia2, I like shiny..
 434 12:27 < pleia2> wiki.ubuntu-women.org looked better than wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWomen I guess
 435 12:27 < Venil_> It does
 436 12:27 < Venil_> What are we going to change it to?
 437 12:28 < pleia2> well, we'd put it back to wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWomen and point wiki.ubuntu-women.org there
 438 12:28 < Venil_> ok
 439 12:29 < pleia2> ok, I think we probably want to move forward with this unless canonical surprises us in the next few weeks with an upgrade
 440 12:30 < pleia2> I'll start putting a plan together (but this month is INSANE! so it might be put on the back burner for a couple weeks)
 441 12:30 < czajkowski> ok
 442 12:30 < czajkowski> but do mail the list
 443 12:31 < Venil_> Fine
 444 12:31 < czajkowski> and get EVEYONE involved
 445 12:31 < pleia2> will do :)
 446 12:31 < czajkowski> one final thing, re UDS~
 447 12:31 < czajkowski> we're going for dinner on Wednesday night
 448 12:31 < pleia2> ok cool
 449 12:31 < czajkowski> if anyone has any suggestion for where we should go
 450 12:31 < czajkowski> let either myself or akgraner know please
 451 12:32 < czajkowski> so we can get the word out
 452 12:32 < czajkowski> is there a texas loco ?
 453 12:32 < pleia2> czajkowski: oh, god, dont even get me started on the texas loco
 454 12:32 < czajkowski> ohhhh
 455 12:32 < czajkowski> okie dokie
 456 12:32 < pleia2> they have like 6 tiny regional locos, no centralization, I am working with them :)
 457 12:32 < pleia2> one of those regions is dallas though, so we can probably ask them
 458 12:33 < czajkowski> lovely jubbly
 459 12:33 < pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DallasTeam
 460 12:34 < akgraner> czajkowski, a couple of the canonical folks live in that area want me to ask them?
 461 12:34 < czajkowski> that might be an idea
 462 12:34 < czajkowski> rather than wednesday trying to figure out where to go
 463 12:34 < czajkowski> at least have an idea
 464 12:35 < czajkowski> I've added it to the social list on ~UDS wiki
 465 12:35 < HappY_Yogurt> So what do you guys think about windows 7?
 466 12:35 < akgraner> ok.. I'll see what I can find out.. maybe we can decide the week prior
 467 12:35 < pleia2> czajkowski: wanna follow up on your list thread so people on the list know it'll be wednesday too?
 468 12:36 < czajkowski> yarp will do
 469 12:36 < pleia2> thanks akgraner!
 470 12:36 < czajkowski> akgraner: yup
 471 12:37 < akgraner> :-)
 472 12:37 < IdleOne> HappY_Yogurt: according to the tv commercials, Windows 7 was my idea.
 473 12:37 < Venil_> What?
 474 12:37 < IdleOne> I don't remember having the idea but heh
 475 12:37 < pleia2> alright, any other items for the meeting?
 476 12:39 < akgraner> how another meeting in about a month
 477 12:39 < pleia2> same bat time, same bat channel? :)
 478 12:39 < czajkowski> yeah I think try and increase the irc meeting
 479 12:39 < czajkowski> maybe put out a poll
 480 12:39 < akgraner> sure..
 481 12:39 < pleia2> 1st sunday at 16:00 UTC
 482 12:39 < czajkowski> now for next monnth
 483 12:39 < akgraner> sounds good to me
 484 12:39  * issyl0 is wondering if there is an ubuntu Surrey (UK) group... probably not, from my searches, in fact there is nothing around here really, shame!  And no I'm not creating one, before anyone suggests it, sorry
 485 12:39 < Venil_> ok
 486 12:39 < czajkowski> as it's kinda quiet in here and I know there are a lotta folks who are chatty
 487 12:40 < czajkowski> issyl0: ask popey where the nearest one to you is
 488 12:40 < popey> issyl0: there's not really any regional ubuntu thing in the surrey area
 489 12:41 < issyl0> czajkowski, well I'm part of Surrey and Hampshire LUGs which popey is also a part of, but they are full of men over 40 mostly and there are only like 3 women who don't turn up very often
 490 12:41 < issyl0> Oh, I didn't realise you were here!
 491 12:41 < popey> :)
 492 12:41 < popey> I'm everywhere
 493 12:41 < issyl0> Hmm!
 494 12:41 < issyl0> It seems like it actually now!
 495 12:41 < Solarion> issyl0: Is the situation a bit surreyal? :)
 496 12:41 < popey> issyl0: are you thinking of an Ubuntu Surrey group or an Ubuntu Women Surrey group?
 497 12:41 < MsMaco> issyl0: sounds like LUGs here
 498 12:42 < MsMaco> the only other woman who ever showed up stopped :(
 499 12:42 < Solarion> :(
 500 12:42 < popey> to be fair one of the reasons some of the women in the lug dont turn up is because they live well outside the surrey area
 501 12:43 < issyl0> popey, well it would be good to get more women and maybe young people involved too, but not exclusively for women as that would be too small a group at the moment.
 502 12:43 < popey> I suspect the female attendance of LUGs in the UK pretty much accurately represents the proportion of Women in Open Source and IT in general, which of course sucks
 503 12:43 < issyl0> popey, heh :)
 504 12:43 < popey> i completely agree issyl0
 505 12:43 < issyl0> Solarion, very funny :P
 506 12:43 < Solarion> issyl0: I do what I can. :)
 507 12:44 < issyl0> </sarcasm> :P
 508 12:44 < Solarion> yeah, puns get no love. :(
 509 12:44 < issyl0> brb
 510 12:45 < Solarion> (it was also written before I saw there was an actual situation; was aimed at the question about LUGs in Surrey)
 511 12:45 < issyl0> Oh and by the way, for the record, whenever I use the term 'guys', it's the non gender specific way ;)
 512 12:45 < Solarion> now it's a classic case of foot-in-mouth disease
 513 12:45 < akgraner> pleia2, thanks for facilitating the meeting...
 514 12:45 < issyl0> Solarion, oh right don't worry :)
 515 12:45 < Solarion> issyl0: "y'all" works, aside from the sourthern aspect
 516 12:45 < Solarion> worrying is what I do. I think I got it from Mom.
 517 12:45 < MsMaco> i use folks
 518 12:45 < MsMaco> got that from hypa7ia
 519 12:46 < Venil_> How about people?
 520 12:46 < Venil_> or everyone/
 521 12:46 < Solarion> peeps
 522 12:46 < Solarion> suppose that might resonate with "chicks" so perhaps not
 523 12:46 < MsMaco> lets just avoid fellows/fellas
 524 12:47 < pleia2> akgraner: thanks for coming!
 525 12:47 < pleia2> thanks to everyone :)
 526 12:47 < czajkowski> yup!
 527 12:47 < Venil_> Thanks everyone
 528 12:47 < Solarion> wewt?
 529 12:47 < czajkowski> nice discussions today
 530 12:47 < Venil_> yes
 531 12:47 < akgraner> indeed.. great discussions
 532 12:47 < Solarion> ah, there was a meeting. I thought there was an unexpectedly large amount of traffic
 533 12:48 < Solarion> :)
 534 12:48  * Solarion is ignernt
 535 12:48 < pleia2> oh yes, meeting officially over :)

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